2008-08-22 [Love like Winter.]: Amen sista! I agree.. There are REAL nice guys out there. Its just a matter of filtering out the fake ones :P

2008-08-22 [DeeJay™]: nah, i dont intend to bitch :]
but, when i was writing it, it did sound pretty bitchy xD

i dont really mind the piece overall. i think that the vast majority of it is accurate. and the bits i didnt agree with, i couldnt come up with a non-bitchy-sounding reason, soo.. i'll keep my thoughts to myself on those x]

but, why do women stay with guys who everyone else knows are bad for them? why, once they've found out they're 'illogical, ignorant, lying, abusive assholes', do they then stay with them? :S
i guess that kinda makes the 'illogical' bit redundant. or, it does for me <.<

2008-08-22 [Bookwyrm]: Well, not all of them do. :P Frankly, a lot of women are illogical. Nearly all women have confidence issues, and so they often seek the approval of those around them--particularly men (for some reason). Typically the men who are bad to these women know that, and use it to their advantage...say, beating the crap of her one moment, and then a few moments later telling her how beautiful she is and how he couldn't live without her. Or doing the opposite, and telling her that she's disgusting and that no one in their right mind would want her...he's basically being "charitable" to her. These are extreme examples, but it's often seen on lesser scales--mental abuse is much more subtle but much more common, and most women don't even realize it's happening. And of course, some women do this to men--it goes both ways.

Then there are the women who are afraid of change. They know that they shouldn't be with this person, but they've been with him so long that they don't know how to say goodbye, and they don't know how to be with anyone else. This is basically pure fear in one's abilities. She's not sure if she can handle life without him, because she hasn't had to for so long. She's grown used to having him around, bad qualities and all.

More than likely it's a co-dependency problem. We often feel the need to attach ourselves to someone because we don't feel like we can take on the world ourselves. This is a flaw in ourselves, not in the men in our lives. The only time it becomes the mens' fault is if they use it to their advantage. Some women make themselves very easy to manipulate because they're afraid of being alone. It's stupid, and it's dangerous, but it's true. Now, it's easy for an "outsider" to see where the problems are, and sometimes it's easy for her to see where the problems are, but to take the advice and face her fears? That's where it becomes a problem...so instead of admitting that there's a problem and that she's just too scared to get out of the relationship, she'll make shit up. ^^'

2008-08-22 [Bookwyrm]: Oh, and if you're upset with the tone of the writing, forgive me, I was just mimicking the tone from the "Nice Guys" ode. :P

2008-08-23 [DeeJay™]: if he's hit you once, he'll do it again. if he berates you constantly, it'll just get worse. how can anyone possibly think that the relationship is going well? or it'll get better?
and why would anyone want to make excuses, 'cause he said one looked pretty afterwards?
no logic could ever justify staying with them. none at all. so why do women keep themselves in that position?

another thing i dont understand; why do all women have confidence issues? (and dont blame it on guys, it's not true..) xD
surely if they had some self-confidence, the last two paragraphs (if not the first, too) wouldnt be issues x]

oh, and the tone was fine. it was honest :]

2008-08-23 [Bookwyrm]: XD Like I said, women are often illogical. There is no justification. I was merely explaining what goes through a woman's mind during situations like that. She knows it'll happen again more than likely, though some part of her might hold out hope that he'll change (yeah, whatever). Typically she simply feels that she isn't good enough for anything better than what she's receiving, and more often than not the man is reinforcing that belief by telling her that she's scum. It's a vicious cycle, and is very hard to break. It typically starts with lack of confidence in oneself.

I don't blame it on guys. Well not all guys. There are some guys that do that. My step-father was one of those abusive assholes who made the women in his life feel like shit. It started with me at a young age. I was already sick all the time and picked on at school for different reasons, and when I was home he'd tell me how awful I was and how no one could want me and blah blah blah. Bunch of bullshit, basically. But when you're told that every day, you begin to believe it, even when you've done nothing to prove it.

Other than that, it's a curious question. The media doesn't help with their airbrushed photos of super-models that (no offense) most men drool over, so we feel like we need to at least be comparable to them to feel desired and pretty. Plus, I believe it is in the mindset of most women that they have to be "prettier than her." It's stupid, but it's how most women seem to be wired. We compare ourselves to other women constantly, and usually can't be satisfied with ourselves until we stop doing that, because there's always someone "prettier" in our eyes. No matter how much nipping, tucking, plucking, and pruning we do, we never feel like we're "enough." Women are illogical. :P

It starts with us, it is enhanced by men. XD I know that sounds like I'm blaming guys, but I'm not. It's simple fact. We're already stupid enough to believe we're not good enough, and then we see things like Playboy, or even just a pretty "girl next door," and we feel like we have to be better to be considered attractive in the eyes of men.

Honestly it's something even I have to work with. I have huge jealousy issues, not because I don't trust the man I'm with, but because I have to feel like I'm the best. XD I'm working on not comparing myself to other women. Honestly, it's not their fault they're beautiful. XD

2008-08-23 [DeeJay™]: but, with just a shred of self-respect, and a smidge of confidence, it shouldnt be hard to work out she'll be better without him in her life, right?
yet, even when they've established that, they stay. whyyyyyy? D:

im sorry to hear about you and your step-father's relationship :x
the same thing happened with one of my friends, actually. her step-dad was calling her nasty names; completely ruined her confidence. she eventually managed to move to her grandma's, but everytime anyone compliments her, she doesnt believe it, 'cause his words are still in her head :S
may i be nosy enough to ask how you got out of that situation?

yeah, i know women always compare themselves to other girls. it's why there's a section in most women's magasines showing celebs looking terrible xD
...dont ask me how i know that o_o
but it really is pointless thing to do; compare yourself to billions of women, on the hope of being prettier than all of them x]
why not just accept one will never be the most beautiful, and focus on other things about their person?

and good luck! i hope you succeed :3

2008-08-23 [Love like Winter.]: Yeah, also many women who are abused have children. A family to think of. They can't confront their partner about it out of fear and can't afford to leave the house because they may have no where else to go. Many also get threatened that if she leaves, he'll go after her. So they stay quiet and put up with it in hope that things don't get worse (never mind getting better).

Of course, women can also be the abusers. My family was more like this. My parents would drink heavily and then my mum would get aggressive. My Dad never hit her, not even in retaliation. But he would try to defend/protect himself and she would get the odd bruise out of this. I would then have to listen to her play the victem and tell her workmates about how my Dad hits her -.- This has taught me a valuable lesson in life: you never know quite what goes on behind closed doors.

2008-08-23 [Bookwyrm]: Exactly, [Love like Winter.]. It comes from both sides...and really, there is no justification or reasoning behind it that truly makes sense. It's just the way people are. People get used to living a certain way. A lot of times, people get used to being miserable, so they just put up with it. A lot of times, change can seem a lot scarier than your current situation...and I think that's what keeps most people in abusive relationships...it's so hard to change what you know. :/

That's how I got out of it. Well, my mom and step-dad would drink and fight, drink and fight. He was an abusive drug-addict, and sort of influenced my mom toward that path. The drugs addled his brain, I think, because he started doing other things I'd rather not mention here...let's just say he was an asshole. I ran away a few times, but always came back because I didn't think I had anywhere to go. Eventually I ran away to my grandmother's, told her some of what was going on, and she wouldn't let my mom take me back. My mom hated me for a long time, and I hated her. Eventually, after she left the dirtbag, we were able to forgive one another, but I refused until she left him. By then she'd already had two kids by him. -_- I had that same problem, though. For a long time I couldn't accept compliments, because I didn't feel I deserved them. I had a really rough high-school career because of that as well. Eventually I got over it and learned what a wonderful human being I am. :P I still have confidence issues sometimes, but I'm a hell of a lot better than before. Basically it came down to realizing that it wasn't my fault that he did what he did, and I should've never paid attention to what a scumbag like that had to say in the first place. :P Personally I'd be disappointed if he thought highly of me, because then I really would be trash. XD

Oy. -hugs [Love like Winter.]- Sorry about your mom. Sometimes I think that abusive women are worse than men, because the women play the victim card so much more. I have a friend who used to date an abusive girl. He was, of course, much stronger than her, and could've easily done the same back, but he wouldn't. Only thing he would do would be to hold her back so that she couldn't put her full weight into the attack. When she got bruises from that, she'd tell people that he beat her. -_- What a bitch. People like that make me sick.

2008-08-23 [Love like Winter.]: Hmm, its probably worse for men. Because men have problems admiting their feelings anyway, never mind social expectations. They think others will think they are lesser men for taking abuse from a woman but if anything, they are obviously more strong willed and decient than most.

*hugs [Bookwyrm]* I'm sorry to hear about your step-dad. My Dad's GF after my mum was aggressive too, she took it out on me as well. I understand how detrimental to someone's self-esteem that is. The worst thing for me was that she seemed to get away with her behaviour, because my Dad loved her, he would welcome her back. It's hard when its going on in your own home and theres no where to get away from it. It's hard seeing someone you love being treated like a doormat. It made me lose a lot of respect for my Dad, which in turn, I felt guilty about. Whats important is that you still have your mum and you guys talk now. I'm glad you don't have to live with that anymore and you can move on :)

2008-08-23 [Bookwyrm]: -nods- Precisely. -kicks the women who give good women a bad name- It's disgusting.

I'm sorry about your Dad and his girl. I don't understand why people act that way. I don't see myself getting any pleasure out of making someone else's life hell. I can't see how other people do. -grimace- It's hard not to lose respect for someone who continues to subject themselves to such treatment, or subject people they love to said treatment. You can be sympathetic for as long as you like, but after a time, you get disheartened. It's just the way we are. I am happy I was able to get out of that situation as early as I did, and glad I didn't turn out to be a complete monster after it. -hugs- Here's hoping you never have to put up with anything like that again.

2008-08-23 [Love like Winter.]: You know its bad when it starts to feel "normal" and when you tell friends about it, they are tottally shocked and you can understand why but it dosn't feel appauling to you anymore.

But everything that I have been through has only made me s stronger/tougher person. So I'm thankful in a way :P

2008-08-23 [Bookwyrm]: I know exactly what you mean. ^-^ But like you, I'm thankful. It'd be nice to have learned the lessons another way but experience is life's greatest teacher and all that. :P

2008-08-23 [Love like Winter.]: I agree.. If it wern't for how I've been treated in the past, I would probably be a worse person. To think I wouldn't be who I am today is strange, I'm more than happy with how I've turned out =)

2008-08-23 [Bookwyrm]: -grins- I could toast to that. -offers you tea- XD

2008-08-23 [Love like Winter.]: Aha, I like this wiki more and more. *brings out the teacups*

2008-08-23 [Bookwyrm]: -brings out plate of cookies- Might as well...XD

2008-08-23 [Love like Winter.]: Tea party!! =D

2008-08-23 [Bookwyrm]: Heck yes! I haven't had one of these since I was little! And my only guests then were teddy bears. T_T

2008-08-23 [Love like Winter.]: I know... My dolls were all very pretty but useless at making conversation.

2008-08-23 [Bookwyrm]: Dolls scared me. x_x I stuck with plushies. I didn't mind kitties, puppies, and bunnies at the table. XD